Ryan Wilson: Perception of What Brandon Sutter Should be Has Been Wrong Perception of What Brandon Sutter Should be Has Been Wrong

First!

Sutter has been good for us. Time to part ways with P-Mart. Go for a top 6 guy.

Dumoulin looks almost NHL ready.

I've been calling this line for quite a long time: Sutter-Malkin-Bennett. With the good play of Comeau I find it hard to see Bennett jump over him in the lineup right now though.

Also I like Downie on the 3rd line but I'm ok with him on the 4th since Sutter would no longer play with him.

I'm just really hesitant to roll out a two line team again.

Goc is a solid defensive player, but he's not too far off from being as offensively inept as Sill and Adams. 1 goal and 2 assists in 37 games as a Penguin.

I do agree with the idea of Sutter staying with Malkin (though I'm growing tired of the idea that Sutter has to have good linemates to play well - that's true of every player in the league, and I don't understand how Sutter gets criticized for not being able to make his poor linemates better, but then Goc gets excused for having bad linemates), but I'd rather see Spaling centering the 3rd line than Goc, as he's also very good offensively, but he has more speed and skill.

The reality is that if Sutter moves to 2nd line C, they need to trade for a more offensively inclined 3rd line C.

Josh Yohe ✔ @JoshYohe_Trib
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In last 14 games, Pens have been awarded 30 power plays. Their opponents have been awarded 49 power plays.
12:01 AM - 9 Dec 2014
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Seemed that way to me. Does that mean we are working less than we should have been or just bad refereeing (or the "whinny stars effect"?)

Josh Yohe ✔ @JoshYohe_Trib
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In last 14 games, Pens have been awarded 30 power plays. Their opponents have been awarded 49 power plays.
12:01 AM - 9 Dec 2014
44 RETWEETS 31 FAVORITES ReplyRetweetFavorite

Seemed that way to me. Does that mean we are working less than we should have been or just bad refereeing (or the "whinny stars effect"?)
- Barnaby36

I don't mean this to sound like captain obvious, but Pitt seems to have less interest in attempting to draw penalties from the opponent and more concerned with acting out and drawing penalties on themselves. Cooke for all the stuff that followed him was always good for drawing a couple penalties in a game and it doesn't seem like we have that anymore.

As far as your provided stats, I am curious as to how many of the 30 power plays were also nullified by penalties taken with the advantage.

I'm just really hesitant to roll out a two line team again.

Goc is a solid defensive player, but he's not too far off from being as offensively inept as Sill and Adams. 1 goal and 2 assists in 37 games as a Penguin.

I do agree with the idea of Sutter staying with Malkin (though I'm growing tired of the idea that Sutter has to have good linemates to play well - that's true of every player in the league, and I don't understand how Sutter gets criticized for not being able to make his poor linemates better, but then Goc gets excused for having bad linemates), but I'd rather see Spaling centering the 3rd line than Goc, as he's also very good offensively, but he has more speed and skill.

The reality is that if Sutter moves to 2nd line C, they need to trade for a more offensively inclined 3rd line C.
- hardnosed

haha Yeah I always got a kick out of this. Last year many criticized Sutter for not being able to "lift" his horrible line-mates (Adams and Vitale) but then this year Goc is put up on a pedestal even though he has done nothing which many will blame on his non NHL caliber line-mates..... hmm

This was basically my argument for why we shouldn't trade Sutter in a pacage for a top 6 guy. Yeah, the guy we get will probably be an upgrade over what Flats can bring to Geno's line, but I'd rather have two top 6 guys (Sutter & X) than one top 6 guy. We have a problem at forward depth and a surplus at D, therefor no forward should be going the other way in any potential trade, no matter how much of an upgrade the new forward is.

Also, just a thought, but I'd like to see Sutter on Sid's line with Kunitz, Horn, and Bennett back. I still think that Hornqvist and Kunitz should be separated and Horn has definitely earned the top line spot. The top 6 I'd like to tentatively see is

Sutter-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Bennett

I think that makes both lines dynamic and gives both of our super stars the types of players that they need to succeed, which has never happened before.

I noticed several times last night, away from the wall Sutter can juke and find ways to control and distribute the puck. On the wall it isn't really even close. He can't control the puck. He isn't big enough to separate the puck from the opposition. I would describe Sutter as more of a Peter Nedved. He is no Ron Francis who was my favorite Pens two way player. That said, who would be the 3rd line center, Goc for now and see what he can do. If he proves himself fine, if not try to get someone near the deadline.

Josh Yohe ✔ @JoshYohe_Trib
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In last 14 games, Pens have been awarded 30 power plays. Their opponents have been awarded 49 power plays.
12:01 AM - 9 Dec 2014
44 RETWEETS 31 FAVORITES ReplyRetweetFavorite

Seemed that way to me. Does that mean we are working less than we should have been or just bad refereeing (or the "whinny stars effect"?)
- Barnaby36

I saw it as a case of "evening the playing field" from the referee's perspective. That old adage of "not wanting to control the outcome of a game" by giving even a single non-automatic powerplay to a team that can easily score on between 1/3 and 1/2 of them, thereby giving them a high likelihood of getting at least 1 PP goal in a game. Cause they're going to get about 1 automatic call every game with a hand on a puck or a puck over the glass or something.

The problem is that it essentially creates a situation where different rulebooks are used for each team during each game. What is a penalty for 1 team is not a penalty for the other and vice versa. It leads to frustration, which leads to complaining about it directly to the refs, which leads to accusations of "whining" which leads to refs not wanting to be shown up by star players, which leads to further reinforcement of the 2 rulebook philosophy as "punishment for whining".

It's a vicious circle that IMO, can only be escaped by either keeping entirely quiet about it & hoping that it eventually ends & that they end up looking more like the "victims of bad reffing" by non-Pens fans, causing the optics of the situation to shift, or they really lay into the league in the media after each & every game. Not by the players but by the coach. It's the one thing that some coaches are really good at. They'd work the refs in the media after games & almost shame them into at least 1 or 2 extra calls the next game.

I saw it as a case of "evening the playing field" from the referee's perspective. That old adage of "not wanting to control the outcome of a game" by giving even a single non-automatic powerplay to a team that can easily score on between 1/3 and 1/2 of them, thereby giving them a high likelihood of getting at least 1 PP goal in a game.

The problem is that it essentially creates a situation where different rulebooks are used for each team during each game. What is a penalty for 1 team is not a penalty for the other and vice versa. It leads to frustration, which leads to complaining about it directly to the refs, which leads to accusations of "whining" which leads to refs not wanting to be shown up by star players, which leads to further reinforcement of the 2 rulebook philosophy as "punishment for whining".

It's a vicious circle that IMO, can only be escaped by either keeping entirely quiet about it & hoping that it eventually ends & that they end up looking more like the "victims of bad reffing" by non-Pens fans, causing the optics of the situation to shift, or they really lay into the league in the media after each & every game. Not by the players but by the coach. It's the one thing that some coaches are really good at. They'd work the refs in the media after games & almost shame them into at least 1 or 2 extra calls the next game.
- ScienceJesus

Lots of really good points here. Last night, the disparity between how the game was called for each team was pretty severe. The ticky tack interference on Spaling on the Crosby breakaway came right after Crosby had been blatantly hooked.

I think its a stretch mentioning Bennett among players the Pens were without. Bennett being out is the rule rather than the exception.
At what point do you label him with the "B" word.

As well as Sutter plays with Malkin, i would ultimately rather see a 3rd line of Sutter-Bennett-Downie. I think Comeau has done enough to prove that he belongs on Geno's wing, which leaves the Penguins only needing 1 top 6 guy via trade. Whether the new guy goes with Geno or Sid is debatable, but that would leaves Goc with a combination of wingers from the pool of Klinkhammer, Spaling, Adams, and Megna. That would be a pretty effective 4th line.

I think its a stretch mentioning Bennett among players the Pens were without. Bennett being out is the rule rather than the exception.
At what point do you label him with the "B" word.
- all-pgh

The kid has had some bad luck, but he's still just a kid. Until he is injury prone with a big contract, the Penguins shouldn't give up on the guy.

I think its a stretch mentioning Bennett among players the Pens were without. Bennett being out is the rule rather than the exception.
At what point do you label him with the "B" word.
- all-pgh

What's the B word? Bad luck?

What's the B word? Bad luck?
- hardnosed

Breakable

I agree w/RW's post and I like the line combos. Would also be open to flipping BB and Comeau. Actually, that will naturally occur once BB returns and gets hurt again.

Hoping GMJR can bring in 2 FW bodies preferably with some snarl. That group would look a lot better in April.

GMJR may have to move PMart just to free up the cap space to acquire some forward help. They are up against it. Don't be surprised if PMart is moved for draft picks in early Jan just to get $2.5 or so off the books.

I agree w/RW's post and I like the line combos. Would also be open to flipping BB and Comeau. Actually, that will naturally occur once BB returns and gets hurt again.

Hoping GMJR can bring in 2 FW bodies preferably with some snarl. That group would look a lot better in April.

GMJR may have to move PMart just to free up the cap space to acquire some forward help. They are up against it. Don't be surprised if PMart is moved for draft picks in early Jan just to get $2.5 or so off the books.
- 87_71_11_29

They've still got the money that they're saving from Duper's injury that they can add to their existing space. Even if he comes back this year, they'll still have saved a lot on his per-diem cap hit.

I think its a stretch mentioning Bennett among players the Pens were without. Bennett being out is the rule rather than the exception.
At what point do you label him with the "B" word.
- all-pgh

He is cheaper to retain than Tanner Glass. I'll hold on to Bennett thank you

I agree w/RW's post and I like the line combos. Would also be open to flipping BB and Comeau. Actually, that will naturally occur once BB returns and gets hurt again.

Hoping GMJR can bring in 2 FW bodies preferably with some snarl. That group would look a lot better in April.

GMJR may have to move PMart just to free up the cap space to acquire some forward help. They are up against it. Don't be surprised if PMart is moved for draft picks in early Jan just to get $2.5 or so off the books.
- 87_71_11_29

That's what I was thinking, what would he return though? I mean.. we did pay 2 seconds for douglas murray who was their worst defender..

Also who gets moved for forwards then if we already moved martin for a pick/picks? That would leave us with despres, pouliot, harrington, dumoulin and also picks we could get and our original picks. I don't see us moving a forward obviously. If anything, I see dumoulin and martin moving, maybe bortz. 58, 10, 3, 47 and 4 won't get moved. Scudz can't be moved unless some absolute magic is worked and moving despres now doesn't make sense. He's finally getting the chance to show he can be a top 4 d man as early as next year.

Letang and Martin are far and away the Penguins' top pairing. There's no rational reason to break up that pairing by trading away the Penguins' second best defenseman.

They've still got the money that they're saving from Duper's injury that they can add to their existing space. Even if he comes back this year, they'll still have saved a lot on his per-diem cap hit.
- ScienceJesus

There is no per-diem cap hit. If Dupuis comes back, you haven't saved any money, you are still responsible for his full cap hit. You only have his LTIR Relief while he is on LTIR. You don't bank any savings while they are on it, you either use the relief while they are out or you don't.

Also, if we trade Martin we get $5 million back under the cap, not 2.5

Ryan Wilson: Perception of What Brandon Sutter Should be Has Been Wrong
Perception of What Brandon Sutter Should be Has Been Wrong
- Ryan_Wilson

I can tell you that not too many people from this side of PA lacked respect for Ronnie "Franchise". I saw a lot of him and maybe he wasnt appreciated because he was so consistent night in /night out that he didn't appear to elevate his game like 66 & 68 did. Instead, his game was already at such a high level that there was not too much room to improve. I liked him on the Whalers and always wanted him on the Flyers. Question to Pens fans: Was that not the single most important trade in the Pens franchise history?

I can tell you that not too many people from this side of PA lacked respect for Ronnie "Franchise". I saw a lot of him and maybe he wasnt appreciated because he was so consistent night in /night out that he didn't appear to elevate his game like 66 & 68 did. Instead, his game was already at such a high level that there was not too much room to improve. I like him on the Whalers. Question to Pens fans: Was that not the single most important trade in the Pens franchise history?
- BOSS_TWEED

Cullen/Zalapski/Parker for Francis/Ulfie/Jennings.

Hard to believe that Francis got the "C" taken away shortly before that trade.

Letang and Martin are far and away the Penguins' top pairing. There's no rational reason to break up that pairing by trading away the Penguins' second best defenseman.
- hardnosed

Letang-Maatta?